What is "Going too far?"

ShadowBearer · Post by **ShadowBearer** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:03 pm

To flip the question...what is going to far and on hacing to damage things to quickly leave?

Sertile · Post by **Sertile** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:53 pm

ShadowBearer · Post by **ShadowBearer** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:52 am

Let say you are in some place and the law shows up and you have to leave rapidly. what is crossing the line then?

S1L3N7B0B · Post by **S1L3N7B0B** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:47 pm

Well to start, you shouldn't break anything at all - to get in or out. And if you did, they would potentially have more to charge you with.

I wouldn't even run. Maybe hide but not run. That just gives them more reason to think you were doing something wrong. Most of the best-case scenarios have come from being honest. You'd probably have a better chance confronting them (ie., walking up to them, maybe waving). Show you don't mean any harm.

ShadowBearer · Post by **ShadowBearer** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:57 pm

That is, of course, something to consider, but that doesn't awlways fit the reality of situations.

gimpface · Post by **gimpface** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:56 am

When I first heard about UE, I sat down and pondered the lockpicking question. I decided that, should the need arise in an area I feel is reasonably safe to do so I would have no qualms with picking a lock or two to get somewhere. I had read about the ol' lock switcheroo trick being used by Marcincko's boys in Red Cell to great effect for both infiltration and exfiltration and wondered if it would be ethical for myself to do the same.

Ultimately, I decided it would be. These sites are not caves. They are not natural wonders whose ecosystems could be (and have been) screwed up because somebody stole a stalactite or three and then took a dump on the floor. They are, for all intents and purposes wastelands. They may be owned, but nobody really gives a shit about them. Really, I think that's part of the attraction to these places. They're forgotten. Somehow that makes them mysterious, and certain strange individuals feel a need to get inside, on top of or just around to check them out.
I'm not in favor of wanton destruction. I wouldn't do this to an occupied site (i.e. Heers, WalMart, Springfield Underground, etc.). But what I have discovered is that my UE rule of ethics #1 is not "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footsteps", but rather

"At all costs, do not be caught"

If this means making subtle changes to the geography to speed up my infil and exfil times, so be it. Next would be

"Don't do anything that will result in other UEs being caught"

If my little lock means they upgrade security to the point that others can't get in, awesome: Nobody is going to get busted there. There are always other sites, but if a UE is caught it makes us all look bad.
Next would be

"Don't get hurt"
and
"Don't do anything that will result in anyone else being hurt"

Injuries are never a good thing, but a serious injury someplace that you're not supposed to be will in all probability result in you being caught, as well as injured. Granted, there's a certain amount of risk involved with a lot of the stuff we do... that's just the nature of the beast. But don't do anything stupid- The first time one of us is killed (in all probablity it will eventually happen) it will reflect poorly on us all as a whole.

I have other ethics, but I feel the above are things that most of us can agree on. Everyone has their own personal code of ethics. Some UEs tag, others don't. Some break in, others won't. The important thing is to be adult enough to know the risks and accept the consequences of your actions. This might mean being maimed, arrested, or worse (like a bumpy ride in a long black hearse).

Here's an article I read on infiltration about draining. I present it because the author seems to have no qualms with either smashing locks or tagging (something I personally dislike) but is not some retarded teenage goon. He's a UE like you or me and his own ethics are reflected in his writing.

http://www.infiltration.org/observations-approach.html

ShadowBearer · Post by **ShadowBearer** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:54 pm

gimpface wrote:
"Don't do anything that will result in other UEs being caught"

If my little lock means they upgrade security to the point that others can't get in, awesome: Nobody is going to get busted there. There are always other sites, but if a UE is caught it makes us all look bad.
Next would be

Not sure if I follow this. I am a 100% in favor of lock replacement but I can hardly justify that if someone finds it and beefs up security that is a good thing. No one is going to know this happened untill they go in and check it out.
On the other hand, I see it unlikely that would happen. I just can't see some rent-a-cop being anything other than confused over what happened.

Sertile · Post by **Sertile** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:56 am

Causing security to be beefed up is NOT a good thing. When you're responsible for getting a building sealed you're ruining it for all the legitimate UE'ers out there.

Also, I don't believe I would bash my way through any doors or windows in order to escape the long arm of the law. Luckily I've never been faced with such a dire situation, but if I were ever cornered I would either hide and hope to go unnoticed, or just come out and explain to them what I was doing there in the first place, straight up. I'm not a criminal, and I've got nothing to hide.

I wouldn't consider anyone who tags to be a true Urban Explorer. Urban Explorers respect their environments, and they respect the rights of others. Vandals are criminals, plain and simple. While UE is a victimless crime, vandalism hurts everyone in one way or another.

ShadowBearer · Post by **ShadowBearer** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:01 pm

I just don't get vandalizing. Seems to me you have a lot highe probability of, if you get caught, walking away if you don't have spray paint cans and spray pain on your hands.
But that is just me.

gimpface · Post by **gimpface** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:13 pm

Sertile wrote:I wouldn't consider anyone who tags to be a true Urban Explorer.

Not even if it's a harmless little thing like this:

As far as I'm concerned this is tagging, but whoever put it there is likely a "true" urban explorer, if there is such a thing.

bluecookies · Post by **bluecookies** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:10 pm

where is that at? I mean not real specific (unless you want to PM me

) but it doesn't look like a cave, and not even a storm drain, gotta be some building... right?

gimpface · Post by **gimpface** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:50 pm

That's a picture from the urban ninja force site- I believe that's in the Jordan Creek tunnel somewhere.

Sertile · Post by **Sertile** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:48 pm

Well, a sticker's hardly permanent... in fact, those things peel off every time it rains. The average lifespan of an UO sticker is about a month, tops.

I just don't feel like vandals are true explorers because they don't respect the places they explore. That's a prerequisite for me. I'm not just out to conquer, I actually care about the places I explore.

Willard · Post by **Willard** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:03 am

I'm out to conquer all! Muahahahahahahahaha!

David Keetz · Post by **David Keetz** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:38 pm

....

Billy went too far with his girlfriend

and now they have little johnny to take care of

Underground Ozarks

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