Greene County Historical Trivia

Urban exploration in Springfield, Missouri
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

One of the things I like most about exploration is the history. I just wanted to start a thread for posting interesting historical tidbits that I've uncovered about some of our most discussed locations.

Ash Grove Cave/ Skylight Cave's Proper name:

In Holcombe's History of Green County this cave is referenced. In the time Holcombe is writing about (just after the Civil War) the cave was referred to as Mason's Cave or sometimes the Cave of Adullum (biblical reference).

Another note on the cave. We kind of feel bad about how vadalized the cave is nowadas, but even in 1883 Holcombe noted: "These (cave formations) have suffered no little mutilation and other injuries at the hands of relic-hunters and curiosity seekers."

So I guess even 129 years ago Ash Grove cave was already a bit run down.
User avatar
Twail Wetard
The Clit Commander
The Clit Commander
Posts: 1149
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:19 pm
Location: SPRINGFIELD, MO

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Twail Wetard »

Wonder how badass it looked in its prime
THE THREAD KILLER!
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

RE: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

In 1883 the citizens of Rogersville were uneducated rubes.

Holcombe: "Washington is the southeast township of Greene county. It is considered the least important township in the county. For the most part its soil is poor and unproductive, and its people are not of the most thrifty and enterprising, having little taste for books and newspapers and but a meager acquaintance with the outside world. The old log cabins, with the mud-and-stick chimneys, the carpetless doors, the rough interiors and rougher exteriors; the homespun and home-made clothing, the guns, and dogs, and other adjuncts of frontier life are still to be seen here. There is no progress or desire for any improvement. The people are mostly uncommunicative, suspicious of strangers, and seemingly desire nothing but to be let alone. Perhaps the best thing a large majority of the old fogies of this township could do would be to die and go straight to heaven, and give room on earth to others who would not become mere cumberers of the ground."

I don't know anyone from Rogersville, but I wonder how much this has or rather has not changed?
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

Proper Name of Spring and Cave at Winoka Lodge: Big Boiling Spring and Wild Cat Cave

(source is Jonathan Fairbanks and Clyde Edwin Tuck
Past and Present of Greene County, Missouri)
Willard
Encyclopedia Willardica
Encyclopedia Willardica
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Willard »

I forget which Greene County history book it's in but that valley on the south end of the Winoka Lodge property is called Butternut Canyon.
"Oh my God! Wal-mart's going to march on Poland!" ~ Lewis Black

"You're not the "rockstar of the forum." Paul is." ~ CrazyDrummerDude
User avatar
Kit
The Woman
The Woman
Posts: 5246
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:53 am
Location: Springfield, MO

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Kit »

Is this a game? Because I dont stand a chance against Willard.
Kit wrote:I am old
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

He is the historian isn't he? No game, but for real the most interesting thing I think is the history of places. Here's two more facts-


Wilson Creek is named after John Wilson who lived on his farm at the mouth of the Wilson Creek near where it flows into the Terrell Creek. He was freindly with the Delaware Indians who lived nearby and was fond of native women, and took a native wife. Therefore he was known as a "Squaw Man".

The top of the ridge just above Sequiota spring was a Kickapoo burial ground. The graves were eventualy dug up after the land was purchased by white men and Mr. Fischer renamed it Fischer Cave and wanted to make it into a park.


So how cool is that? I can go and stand above Sequiota and imagin the Kickapoo burying their dead there. I can stand on the corner of Jefferson and Grand and imagin the village of 500 Kickapoo with the wickiup huts scattered around. I can go stand at the mouth of Wilson Creek and and imagin John Wilson and his notoriously fat squaw wife bickering.

That's pretty cool to me.
User avatar
Nicotti
The Awkward Ninja
The Awkward Ninja
Posts: 10997
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:46 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Nicotti »

jammer_smith wrote:Proper Name of Spring and Cave at Winoka Lodge: Big Boiling Spring and Wild Cat Cave

(source is Jonathan Fairbanks and Clyde Edwin Tuck
Past and Present of Greene County, Missouri)
Maybe, but they call it Winoka Cave on the cave map.
More online investigation than onsite exploration these days.

“My dear fellow, who will let you?”
“That’s not the point. The point is, who will stop me?”
-Ayn Rand
User avatar
Nicotti
The Awkward Ninja
The Awkward Ninja
Posts: 10997
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:46 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Nicotti »

jammer_smith wrote: Mr. Fischer renamed it Fischer Cave and wanted to make it into a park.
There was a fish hatchery there, that was moved to table rock lake after the dam was built (i believe. I know it was moved someplace) and they had boat rides into the cave back to where the tunnel splits.
More online investigation than onsite exploration these days.

“My dear fellow, who will let you?”
“That’s not the point. The point is, who will stop me?”
-Ayn Rand
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

That's exactly what my source says on the Fish Hatchery as well.

And as far as the name for Winoka/Wild Cat Cave, the book I'm getting this from was published in 1910 or so, so I think we can probably forgive a name change in 100 years. What is really interesting is that Winoka was a known attraction that long ago. It's kinda sad that it's just a run down patch of woods now, it was probably really something to see in it's prime. Of course back then it was a remote valley miles out in the woods south east of the city. Hey back then Hall of Fame caves didn't even exist as they would have still been underground pockets and not yet exposed to the air by road blasting.
Willard
Encyclopedia Willardica
Encyclopedia Willardica
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Willard »

jammer_smith wrote:That's exactly what my source says on the Fish Hatchery as well.

And as far as the name for Winoka/Wild Cat Cave, the book I'm getting this from was published in 1910 or so, so I think we can probably forgive a name change in 100 years. What is really interesting is that Winoka was a known attraction that long ago. It's kinda sad that it's just a run down patch of woods now, it was probably really something to see in it's prime. Of course back then it was a remote valley miles out in the woods south east of the city. Hey back then Hall of Fame caves didn't even exist as they would have still been underground pockets and not yet exposed to the air by road blasting.
The book from 1910 was writen, I believe, by Edward Shepard who used to own the Winoka Lodge property. I have three photos of his house there from 110 years ago. Also, Mr. Shepard was the science professor at Drury, and at one time president of the University.

Also to note, the only indian tribes that are truely native to this area were originally the Osage. They were very peaceful. Winoka is an Osage word. The Kickapoo and Delaware were moved here from the eastern US and in general were quite hostle to white settlers. So, because the Kickapoo and the Delaware didn't get along with the white man, the Federal Government decided all three groups, Delaware, Kickapoo, and Osage, were going to be moved to Indian Territory (Oklahoma). This took place during the 1840s.

And I've posted it before, but I like to try to make things right. The oldest translation of 'winoka' means 'underground spirit' as apposed to the more recent (for the past 100 years) translation of 'great spirit'.
"Oh my God! Wal-mart's going to march on Poland!" ~ Lewis Black

"You're not the "rockstar of the forum." Paul is." ~ CrazyDrummerDude
jammer_smith
The Goose Slayer
The Goose Slayer
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:45 pm

RE: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by jammer_smith »

Thanks, that is really interesting.

So question about the tribes. I found out where the kickapoo tribe was located on north of Maple park cemetary, but where were the Osage and Delaware tribes? From descriptions of the area my best guess is that the Delaware were somewhere southwest of the Wilson Creek/Terrell Creek junction. And I have no idea where the Osage were.

Also from a few of these books I've read it seems that the Delaware were generaly freindly in later times, although apparently they fought and drove off the very first Greene County settlers.
User avatar
Nicotti
The Awkward Ninja
The Awkward Ninja
Posts: 10997
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:46 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Nicotti »

I be hostile to white settlers too if they drove me out of my original areas and then began showing up in the area I'd moved to... those white bastards.
More online investigation than onsite exploration these days.

“My dear fellow, who will let you?”
“That’s not the point. The point is, who will stop me?”
-Ayn Rand
User avatar
BROUSER
Chief Adviser
Chief Adviser
Posts: 6455
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:23 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by BROUSER »

There was a Delaware settlement where Hwy 14 crosses the James, hence the moniker "Delawaretown Access."
“An all-out attack on evolutionist thinking is possibly the only real hope our nations have of rescuing themselves from an inevitable social and moral catastrophe.”
― Ken Ham
Willard
Encyclopedia Willardica
Encyclopedia Willardica
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Greene County Historical Trivia

Post by Willard »

The Osage really kind of camped in various areas in Southwest Missouri. The Winoka Lodge area was supposedly a sacred area for them too.
"Oh my God! Wal-mart's going to march on Poland!" ~ Lewis Black

"You're not the "rockstar of the forum." Paul is." ~ CrazyDrummerDude
Post Reply