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Is UE a Whites Only hobby?
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jammer_smith
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

So, I know we don't usually get political here, and I don't want this to get political, but just the other day my significant other, who is herself Venezuelan, after I told her a few UE stories, said "Jeez, if you were Black you would have been shot by now." and that got me thinking because, while her comment was just offhanded snark, she was not wrong.

I have been stopped by police multiple times, under suspicious circumstance, sometimes even late at night, and just allowed to go about my way. I have been actually run off by the police or security guards a few times, but never aggressively, always with a gentle reminder to not do it again, and I was only once arrested and cuffed until I convinced them I wasn't a vandal or a drug dealer then they let me go and I wasn't charged or ticketed or anything.

In addition, there have been many many times that I've "cased" location pretty brazenly, or even decided to go ahead and hop the fence and look around, in broad daylight and in a not-at-all sneaky way. I've even had property owners come out and I apologized and told them I was just looking around and they either went ahead and showed me the place or just asked me to leave. I enjoy a pretty generous helping of benefit of the doubt, and if I wear a collared shirt tucked into slacks, most people just assume I am supposed to be there and don't even look twice.

Knowing what I know about the wide world, I have to confront the fact that were I a black twenty something, snooping around places where I wasnt supposed to be late at night, I almost certainly would have been arrested/ticketed/jailed/had charges pressed at least a couple of times, and might have even been roughed up a bit, perhaps even shot. I certainly would have had as many security guards and cops just kind look me up and down and then wave me on and wish me a good night, or kinda sigh and in a "hey man it's my job" tone of voice tell me I need to leave.

So, is this hobby a white's only hobby? The kind of low-level relatively harmless rapscallion activity that someone like me can do with relatively little risk, a freedom someone black or latino could never feasibly enjoy?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

Is there a much larger percentage of whites doing it? Yes.

Are there blacks that explore?
Yes. I've met two that I can think of.

Would you be more likely to not get off so easily if you were black and caught doing this?
It depends on the person catching you.

I think what comes into play more than anything is what you are dressed like. If you dress in street clothes, people are much more suspicious of you when you go somewhere normal people don't go. The nicer/more appropriate-for-a-given-location you dress, the less people suspect you of being up to something. If I tried most of the shit I have explored wearing my normal clothes, I would have run into a lot more problems than I have. I know this to be true because I've done this and I've run into problems with people as a result.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

All that is true but lets not forget
one very important factor in what does or does not happen when and if you get caught and it does not matter if you are red yellow black or white

YOUR ATTITUDE
start mouthing the person who caught you and you are headed for a problem
Talk nce and try to explain what it is you are doing you have a way better chance

is it about your skin color I dont really think so but if you were to happen to be black or mexican and you started running some crap and cussinz andgetting all loude and mouthey and your pants are hanging around your knees yep its going to get ugly

but then again if you are a red neck back woods hoosier same thing is gonna happen


KEY WORD ATTITUDE

whay does evereything any more have to be about race??? really getting on my last nerve

I go to church with folks of many diffrent backgrounds we all get alond just great at church and out side of church we just dont let the race thing become any more than we are a little diffrent looking

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

;tldr. Didn't read any of this thread because it's probably a waste of time, but I'll answer the question.

No.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:46 pm    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been cuffed once, because the first time I refused to give my social when he asked. He let me go with a don't be stupid speech.

I've also encountered a sheriff where I had a rifle and he had a drawn pistol. I wasn't doing UE, but I had animal blood on me. I never felt like I even came close to being shot.

I do feel lucky when I see these videos of people shot in the first 5 seconds of an encounter. Maybe Sub is right, maybe it's dress. I don't think I've ever looked threatening, but how do you control what someone considers threatening.
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jammer_smith
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

See, I think one thing that stands out here is all of the "yeah buts". Like....Yeah....but it's all about how you dress. Yeah.....but it's all about your attitude.

The distinct impression I get, both from research and from talking to black and Latino people, is that I, as a white guy, enjoy the ability to have a base-line "good" assumption about me. From that baseline I can choose to dress or act in a way that ruins the "good" assumption for me, but the good assumption is built in. Were I black, I would not get the good assumption, I would be approached by default as if I had a bad attitude or other warning signs that I was trouble, so the baseline for my encounters with strangers or cops or property owners would already be one of assumed suspicion, from which I would then have to be very careful and extremely diplomatic in talking my way down from, and even then in many cases there would be no talking your way down, you would be cuffed and taken in and charged with trespassing, and if you happened to have any tool or implement on you whatsoever, burglary probably (or whatever the breaking into a place with intent to steal stuff but not to attack people charge is, I forget).

So I don't disagree that behaviour and attitude has a lot to do with how the encounter goes down, but can we agree that someone like me (or us I assume) benefits massively from the fact that our base-line is non threatening and not particularly suspicious, and we can certainly ruin that base line with our behaviour, but we still have that base-line, and in many parts of the state, or the country rather, the base line for a black guy would be several notches further up the assumed guilt scale.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

And Baghead......wow....you are some kind of scholar you are.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

The only problem I have with the baseline argument is that it makes the assumption the cop is racist. I have a problem with that only out of the fact that I have friends that have become cops. I know which ones of them are clearly racists, they'd even admit to it if you asked them directly. I'm pretty sure most of the others aren't, and the one married to an African American is probably the most laid back guy you'll meet. The laid back one is a sniper in a bigger city than here, so you probably won't meet him, but he's clearly different than some of the other guys that have short fuses. There's a pretty wide diversity of cops.

I'd agree stats seem to show you're more likely to have cops mistreat you if you are black, but you can only fix that by holding cops accountable in general, right? You don't need to assume they are all racist to do that. You need to find ways of catching them doing wrong things no matter who they are doing it to. The system needs to be set up in a way where these things don't slip through whether a few cops happen to be racist or not, because you are always going to have racists.

This makes me think though, would Kit's husband arrest us if he caught us, or would he give us a don't be stupid speech?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

It sounds like you already had your mind made up before you asked the question.

jammer_smith wrote:
The distinct impression I get, both from research and from talking to black and Latino people, is that I, as a white guy, enjoy the ability to have a base-line "good" assumption about me. From that baseline I can choose to dress or act in a way that ruins the "good" assumption for me, but the good assumption is built in.


Goddamn this whole automatic white privilege assumption is getting old. What happens if the property owner or cop is black or Latino themselves? What if your idea about the baseline "good" assumption is wrong? Why are you making the assumption all cops, security and property owners are white? What does that say about you?

If there are people stupid enough to make this assumption based purely on skin color, that's on them. It's not on me because I'm white. I don't perpetuate the problem, I don't benefit from this privilege* and I don't accept any personal responsibility for racial inequality. *unless you count not being born in the "ghetto" as being a benefit of white privilege. But what about all the blacks that also weren't born in the "ghetto"? I do, however, recognize that this country has a history of racial inequality and I'm of the belief that there are plenty of residual effects and systems that perpetuate it. But to assume all white people benefit from it, to believe in white privilege as an institution that all of us whiteys benefit from is to make a lot of assumptions that are in themselves a racist mentality. I will stand with anyone who wants to tear down systems that benefit one race over the other. Give me a specific thing that benefits all members of one race/group over the other and I will fight it. For example, I fully support gays being allowed to marry because to deny them that is based on a stupid religious idealogy that has no place in politics. Fuck herd mentality and fuck divisiveness. We're all humans.

Quote:
rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
noun: racism

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race


Cue rant:

I grew up in an average lower income suburban area and spent most of my time as a youth in the bad parts of town making poor decisions. I can't point to a single experience/job opportunity/anything and say, "wow that was easy, they really gave me a great opportunity without even knowing me". Every job I've had, I busted my ass to get. I once lost my two full time and part time jobs ON THE SAME DAY, for no apparent reason. WTF. When I was out looking for jobs afterward, I hit up every business (gas station, liquor store, etc) on the stretch of road and was pulled over because the cop thought it was suspicious. He didn't let me go just because I was white, he still wanted to look through my car. I showed him some job applications and had to thoroughly explain myself. I was paired with a black guy in school whose parents paid his way while he drove a BMW. Meanwhile I was taking out student loans and still owe 30K because of it. At my current job, the only other position here exactly the same as mine is filled by a black man. I never had money growing up. I drove a beater with NO Heater or A/C for years because I couldn't afford to do anything about it (heater core leaked, so it was bypassed, A/C just didn't work). You know how much it sucks to drive a car in the winter with no heat? Ever had to scrape ice off the INSIDE of your windshield? It fucking sucks. The trick was to drive with the windows down so your breath didn't fog/freeze up the windshield. That same beater had been broken down in my driveway for years with flat tires and weeds growing through it before I even got it. I walked to my job every day to pay the $1,200 to fix it before I could even drive it. My parents were divorced and I didn't have a dad with which to do regular fatherly activities through much of my childhood. I could go on and on and on. So don't fucking tell me I get all this privilege because I'm white. Tell that to the yuppies in Chesterfield. But wait, I'm pretty sure there are black yuppies there as well... There are lots of pasty, pudgy assholes out there whose parents pay their way through everything and they get all they need just because of what they were born into. They get jobs and everything because of the status they enjoyed from birth. That's just called "privilege". You don't get it just by being white. Us whiteys who don't enjoy that same privilege are completely ignored when people make it a racial issue.

I have been fucked over again and again by cops who pulled me over simply because of what my old beater looked like. If I was a minority, I could have easily made the assumption that cops were only fucking with me because of my skin color. But, unfortunately for that argument, I was white and yet I was still getting fucked with constantly. I would pass cops doing literally nothing wrong and they would do a U turn in the middle of the road, causing traffic on both sides to stop, just so they could pull me over and search my car **illegally** in hopes of finding something they could bust me for, then either let me go or make up a goddamn following too closely ticket. If a cop wants to fuck with you, he can pull you over and if he can't find anything better, he can make up a ticket for following too closely just to make it look like he had a reason to pull you over. I speak from experience. Ever since I got a different car, my life has changed and I haven't had a made up following too closely ticket ever since. Imagine that. Don't make me tell the story that happened to my brother again.. He did nothing wrong, cop tased him in his own driveway and before long there were 10 police cars on site, conveniently none of whom had their dash cams on. But he is white, so there's no scandal there I guess.

Cops fuck with everyone. Equally? No. But the higher crime areas generally have fewer white people living in them to be fucked with. So there's the answer to the statistics. Still, there is most definitely a problem with cops killing people for no reason. They're killing black people for no reason and it needs to stop. They're killing white people for no reason and it needs to stop. Cops need new training and less trigger happy pussies on the force who are scared of minorities. In general, all this racial division needs to stop.

Specifically regarding exploring? I know plenty of white people that have been arrested for it. I was arrested for exploring in 1997 (wasn't my first or last time being arrested, but I had the added enjoyment of exploring that same police station, including the cell I was in, after they got a new one, fuck yeah!). My comrades and I were just pursued by security this past weekend. Just a month ago, we were surrounded by security, then cops, but we waited them out (wasn't us who got us busted nor was it us who decided to stick around, but we were kinda trapped thanks to the people we were with). When I explore, I do everything in my power to avoid them. So in this regard, I can't think of many stories in which I was actually busted by security/cops and I stuck around long enough to talk to them. In general, security just wants you off their property and if they don't think they can get you off of the property, then they'll bring in the cops. So I can't say that I've seen leniency in treatment because I so often haven't given them a chance to treat me one way or the other. But the times that I have been dealt with, I don't think I've been treated any nicer than if I was black, considering I was arrested for it and also because the security and cops who didn't catch us really wanted to catch us. It's not like they saw we were white and were like "Oh you're white? Have fun!".

Also, if you're getting stopped by owners, security or cops while exploring, you're doing it wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

While we're bitching about privilege, I will admit to enjoying a certain privilege many others may not enjoy. Because I am observant and I don't live with my head buried in the sand of my own self-centered point of view.

I enjoy sibling privilege. Having a brother meant that I often had someone to help out with car problems. Not having money meant that I had to fix car problems on my own most of the time. But sometimes, I had help from my brother. Whether it was a ride to get parts or help holding something while I loosen/tighten the bolts. Sibling privilege is a thing, apparently.

Until you take your head out of your ass and consider all the siblings who are fucking horrible to each other and make each others lives hell. Then, woops, there goes your blanket stereotypes. Damn. And I bet you thought I was on to something here.

Instead of trying to tear everyone down because of some perceived privilege, we need to work on building each other up, starting with ourselves. Otherwise, you will spend your life bitching about what someone else has that you don't. Someone else will always have more than you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

It may be off topic, but I'm tired of the trespassing law in general. It's stupid to me that we have all these unused areas where you supposedly do some harm by entering. I understand if it's someone's house, but when it's been sitting there unused for decades, why do people care so much? I don't explore occupied areas if I can help it.

The only semi-good reason I've heard for it is that you can sue land owners if you get hurt, but then I have to ask why the hell do we let random people sue land owners because they got hurt. If the land owner didn't bring you there, what do they have to do with it.

I love the Okupa movement you find in Spain, because it seems like its the way it should be. Some bank wants to just let a property rot, well guess what, others want to fix it up and use it as a bicycle shop. Who cares, they aren't going to sell it in its condition anyway, and if they do, the people move to another rotting building. It's great to see such stupid laws get broken, because I'd love to see the whole concept of owning land change.

I'm an Anarchist at heart though. I mean, why do they have to keep evicting homeless people out of Winoka lodge. Is that lady ever going to actually use the property for anything more important? I mean, shouldn't security guards be some place not abandoned for the last century? One of the biggest justice problems in this country is that our police are protecting us from useless shit. I don't need a SWAT team to bust down my neighbor's door if he has marijuana. I don't need protection from kids spray painting an underpass. I don't need petty crimes like turn signals and loose cigarettes to include violent arrests. None of that shit actually matters to anyone. The country needs to rethink what is important and align our protection against what is actually dangerous.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

Sounds like that hit a nerve with you. I'll let it be since obviously I've stumbled into one of those places where the most offensive thing you can possible say to a white man is to suggest that being white carries advantages.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

Not offensive, just wrong. There's a difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

If you want to go down that route....having a sibling also carries advantages. Being not blind or crippled carries advantages. Being alive carries advantages. Having two parents carries advantages. Being not bald carries advantages. Being tall carries advantages. Just about everything you can fucking think of carries advantages.

Tell me I'm wrong. Take on any of my points directly and shut them down, or accept that maybe my point of view, based on life experience, is also legitimate. Telling me my life experience is not legitimate doesn't make your world view any more accurate.

If you wish to engage in a respectful battle of wits then I've got all day, friend.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:16 pm    Post subject: RE: Is UE a Whites Only hobby? Reply with quote

Dude, if I suggest that being black while committing minor crimes (read: trespassing) is a riskier and has a higher chance of more serious consequences than doing the same while being white, and that statement not only is not obviously true, but warrants a three page aggravated manifesto of a response.....then I think it's pretty clear that someone has some stuff they need to work through.


I, for one, an well aware that being white is cheap, easy, and awesome. If I got to re-roll my life like a new role-playing character, I sure as hell wouldn't choose to Black or Latino, the +2 dick size doesn't do anything to counter act the -10 on diplomacy roles and -2 to all professions, especially not if I had keep my geographical location. This is not controversial to me, nor is it a point of shame, I can't see why it should be. But when I suggest that our shared hobby is a good example of a case in which being white is an easier life difficult setting than being black , boy that REALLY set you off, so I think you've got some serious resentment there you need to analyse and deconstruct. Just a suggestion.

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